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In fact, I think the evolution of society has shown just that. Now there are tens of millions of Deans, and prominent feminists are urging women to bang them for ten or twenty years before picking some pathetic schlub to settle down with. Which feminism, whose feminism, where? That only a very specific brand of second-wave feminism is remembered is in itself an effect of specific forces shaping historical memory.

No, there are now tens of millions of Casanovas. The eponymous guy seemed sorta-ethical and took care of the consequences of his actions. When men lie and steal in order to sleep with lots of women it is Bad. When women lie and steal in order to sleep with lots of men it is Bad. Also when men… with men, and when women… with women, and when whoever… with Ozy. The problem is in the means, not the ends.

Sleeping with lots of women or men, or other genders and treating them as notches on your bedpost, bragging rights about your virility and desirability, suckers who are chumps to fall for your line and who are there to be fleeced sexually, emotionally, and financially until there are no more resources to be drained is bad. You can be a very successful seducer and have nothing but contempt for your conquests. I wonder if its possible to be a very successful seducer and have nothing but respect, admiration and affection for your conquests?

I have the perhaps odd idea that some stereotypes accepted without issue in popular literature and movies, give us information on what behaviors the audiences find believable. This might give us information about the audiences of those eras; idk about later popular works. This seems rarer, though. Maybe it can only exist within certain sub cultures, or maybe it require some other advantages in terms of looks or intelligence.

The notion of the childlike vestigial faith in marriage as a binding commitment occurred to me as well reading this post. Notably, it seems just as easy for them as it was for the Beats, some adaptations: And of course we have to give up all the benefits of having a high trust society.

Are people in low-trust societies normally colder and those in higher-trust societies warmer — as measured how? Were people in the US in the first half of the 20th century really warmer with each other? Norway is a high-trust society, Pakistan is a low-trust society. In Norway you do not talk to or make eye contact with strangers on the bus.

Now where have I heard that before? I come from a society where most women with families have the protection of these men who are so concerned for our dignity, and at least some of us are willing to give up the protections and the horrors of this traditionalism knowing full well that it might expose us to exploitation by wolves like Neal Cassady.

Mostly because we examine our lives and realise that there are things far more horrible than being seduced and discarded? Also, we may be able to fend for ourselves given the chance?

This is a serious question. You know, normal sane human advice. The women in this story were used and discarded both sexually, financially, and in one case, as a literal punching bag. The situation unwed mothers had to survive before the s was horrible, and unwed mothers and the children of unwed mothers still have horrible times today. The risks from excessive protection include what adds up to lifelong imprisonment, and possibly imprisonment with an abuser.

An entire life lived without being granted any agency whatsoever. I have friends married to abusive husbands who can never leave their abusers, there are cases of sexual abuse within families which are never brought to the open, just discussed in mostly-female settings in hushed tones years after the fact.

Most traditional marriages seem to be unhappy judged by, spouses do not actually seem to want to spend time with each other or even talk to each other. Except for the occasional slap that your husband or father may deliver as a method of putting an end to arguments. But things can be worse in a society where men are allowed to violently protect the honour and dignity of their womenfolk.

Women are not children. But they might just be able to manage to live their lives without being utter wrecks. Or is that not what you see when you look around you in your society? As yourself, you think that patriarchy is Don Corleone.

Nevertheless, we both seem to agree that it is functionally , unsentimentally, a protection racket. We must keep the worker away from red literature and red ruses; we must see that his mind remains healthy. Note how the more a police force has to actually do its vaunted work , the more blatantly criminal its activity looks. A few of them may defy their incentives to disempower their constituents, of course, but the incentives are there.

Multi— You actually seem to be drifting anarchist rather than libertarian since libertarians like capitalism, which requires an extensive police regime to protect private property and function.

Uh, that last comment made me sound far less leftist economically than I really am. Personally noble, unanswerable authority thriving and enjoying a dominant position by providing a much-needed service of violence against bad people, versus personally corrupt and immoral unanswerable authority justifying its dominant position on the violence market with the need to protect against bad people. And this was not an attitude about liberating women from child-bearing so they could be great artists; this was the notion that women represented conventional bourgeois society and attitudes, and their clinging demands on men for stable relationships and marriage meant men were being held back from being pioneers and creators; that men needed to be free of all constraints and responsibilities other than to their art, of course.

The same reason that Gauguin gave up his marriage and family for art or at least excused the breakdown of his marriage that way , the same attitude as the lyrics of The Free Electric Band:.

It seems to me that modern feminism has mostly taken this attitude and adopted it, just with the genders reversed. The attitude in the quoted lyrics does not sound bad to me? The fellow believes his partner wants to get married and settle down. So he breaks up with her. What exactly is not ok about this? Dean on the other hand is lying deceptive cheater. Who beats his partner. This is why dean is terrible. Not that he is opposed to settling down.

As long as she was willing to open her legs for him, it was all beer and skittles, but oh noes, she had embedded bourgeois attitudes so he had to skip town and presumably take up with another girl from a social science class in the new intake of students. Lying to your partner is wrong; misrepresenting yourself is wrong; not using proper STD protection is obviously wrong. But modern feminism is just about the same complaint reversed, namely that the patriarchy binds women into domesticity.

One of the characters actually did threaten Dean with a shotgun and tell him to stay away from his daughter, but nobody took it very seriously. The other obvious problem is that this kind of requires the perpetrator to stay put. The primary focus is on keeping control of valuable property, not hunting down random outlaws.

And got threatened with shotgun even though he was privileged foreigner. And married her, which went OK for both parties as far as anyone knew. When I went off to college, some girl started displaying interest in me within the first week. I ended up spending a lot of time in her room. In fact, I was trying to figure out how to say the same thing: The ability to hop in a car and drive across America and find a job wherever you land made it pretty easy to escape the social consequences of all of this… for the men, at least.

Contraception made it theoretically easier for women to avoid consequences as well, but in practice these gains have been mostly illusory for the people who actually need them; the sort of women who have the discipline to regularly use birth control are the same sort of women with the discipline to just keep their legs crossed in the absence of contraception.

However, the collapse of traditional mores which the Pill enabled was felt all the way down the ladder, with well-known disastrous consequences for the lower half. I was also going to point out that the extension of public benefits to unwed women lowered the costs to women of having an unexpected child, thus further enabling Dean and his ilk. But a bit of research shows that this happened after the time period in question.

Note that the direction of consequences are reversed in this case. Turnabout is fair play, I suppose. Like all people should be able to. If the problem is not enough money, then children of divorce should do no worse than children of poor two-parent families. But in fact they do, and children of divorce still do worse when controlled for income. Maybe not comfortably high, clearly in at least some ways they still do suffer….

I want to emphasize that the difference between well-off divorced families and poor divorced families seems so much more significant than the one between poor two-parent households and poor divorced families at the same tier. On what basis do you conclude that this is even possible? What if sexual mores functional and healthy for H.

Is it a discipline question, or do people in the lower classes actually intend the reproductive patterns they exhibit? It is partly a discipline problem that could be addressed by long-term birth control. But single motherhood is mainly what they intend, compared to not having children.

An interesting pair of trends over the past 30 years is the reduction in teenage mothers with the increasing rate of single mothers. That suggests that teenage pregnancy is the result of a discipline problem that might have been easily solved by distributing IUDs decades ago. But it also suggests limits to what improved birth control can achieve. I have read that some poor women intentionally get pregnant in order to have some stable other person in their lives, or some reasoning to that effect.

A review of this is what I am remembering: Even in my own relatively comfortable, but somewhat socially mixed UK context, all my less well off friends noticeably started getting married at around the age of 20 and often started having children around about then and all my more elite university-going friends started getting married 5 or 6 years later and started having children at a much slower rate.

It was probably a lot more to do with different stages in the life course: David Moss, the topic was single motherhood. That your millieu had the taste or discipline to avoid it shows that it was not mixed. Common but hyperbolic, as I understand it. The actual enforcement mechanism was the threat of social ostracism for both parties rather than literal applied ballistics. Though if being ostracized puts one in a social category comparable to outlawry, where the law withdraws its protection against opportunistic violence, the effects may be similar.

In practice it functioned as exile backed up with the threat of lethal force if you come back. Many of the old early medieval procedures for outlawry came with provisions intended to enable the perp to safely if hastily get out of the country: For that matter, even if the father did pull off a literal shotgun wedding, it would be almost impossible to prevent his new son-in-law from enlisting for a decade or two and mustering out a continent away without telling anyone.

If a man or a woman is an asshole they face social punishment. Indeed that works better when women have the economic and social power to enforce that just as much as men. It fails particularly badly when implemented against an edge case, where half the population thinks he was an asshole and half the population thinks that punishing him was an asshole move that itself merits punishment.

And for that subset of these things where pregnancy is a major issue, that gets you into gender norms. Not sure I agree, but upvote. I have a hard time believing that patriarchy ever spent more effort controlling and punishing unruly boys for chasing girls than it did controlling and punishing girls for not running away from boys fast enough.

It seems like a bait-and-switch: I am, to put it mildly, unimpressed. When did patriarchy do more to restrain men than to punish and restrain women? It looks like feudalism: People end up somewhere in the middle, hopefully moderately functional. This reminds me off he Steve Jobs biography. I recommend it—it might make you see the movie with new eyes. With a gimmick that makes them so physically hard to read that I can rarely bring myself to bother. I binged on him a couple weeks ago.

I detested it because it seemed as though we should be pleased that whathisname had a world that made him happy, no matter what it cost everyone else. An interesting thing about satires, is that while they are defined by pointed differences from their genres, they also have to be readily perceived as part of the cluster of their genres. So any trait of a satire that is not Part of the Joke will instead be as central as possible, to provide the setting for the jokes.

People often notice that Onion articles tend to reveal the whole joke concept in the headline, then fill the rest of the space with decreasingly interesting elaborations. Come to think of it all the Cornetto movies take the genre-central ending, so at least they are consistent. Kerouac unlike Marx never suggests that everyone can live like this. Yes, these activities were only available to young, white American men. But maybe turn off the lens for one book, one time, and see if you like it.

OK, that was my defense of the book. Now a more practical view: Particularly now, where backpacking across Europe is as Scott pointed out common and uninteresting, with every moment captured and broadcast to every person you know in an instant and, most importantly, when the damage caused by the irresponsibility of the protagonists is more clear from the vantage of adulthood.

But when I read it twenty-five years ago, when European backpacking was not something I had heard of anyone doing and Instagram was science fiction and the world was a much bigger place, it was pretty thrilling. Despite reading it at a young age, I still grew into a responsible liberal.

You are a rare breed. All The Pretty Horses is much better for this purpose, honestly. It has much more likeable heroes and much less misogyny and defection.

Otoh, it is much less salient and realistic for the typical urban person. I guess my biggest problem was that it was boring. Some sort of fascinating criminal having a great time and fulfilling our secret dreams would be worth a read.

But their idea of escapism is driving really fast and abusing women. Even if I could do it with no moral consequences, I think it would take like a week tops to get bored of that. I think it fails on those terms. We know that they are high enough to justify a substantial portion of the population enjoying at the very least the idea of getting high and doing things without intellectual stimulation or productivity.

Telescoping time somewhat, if the same kid was reading Kerouac and Ayn Rand and Tolkien, they were probably reading a lot of other stuff at the same time. Maybe such worries assume that the kid is reading only one of the above. You read no literary fiction at all just on account of the extremely low risk of ending up with a book like this and reading so much of it as you need to realise its awfulness? That puts it well ahead of yet another tale of a middle-aged English teacher who gets bored of his wife.

It might be worth contrasting this with the quite positive review Scott has of Infinite Jest, which is also literary fiction but Infinite Jest is actually tremendously good. Just read that review.

Here , for those following along at home. The overall message sounds like one I generally agree with, but the style sounds nauseating. Just like whenever a TV show has some drugged-out vision quest I start to hate it, excessively incestuous writing bothers me.

I want my books to tell cool stories and have cool characters, not to turn into a hell of self-referential puzzles. Given the way the protagonists behave, is it really that surprising? Maybe the book should have been titled On The Run instead. Plus the whole mythologizing of travelling being like the pioneers striking out for the new and unknown and being open to experience and all the rest of it. I doubt that even most white males of the time found people this receptive. I actually agree with the characters feelings that they were oppressed.

The implication is that everyone deserves the sympathy and understanding you would give to a person going though a very hard time.

Since everyone is, imo, going through an extremely hard time. Though one sometimes needs to be less than ideally kind due to self preservation or protection of others. But one needs to be careful not to overdo the protection thing. I think the point is more that even the most privileged people in the world have worries and concerns and unhappiness, even if they are about things that might seem trivial.

And anyone, no matter how privileged, can benefit from compassion and sympathy. A society that treats the destructive as well as the productive should be expected to destroy itself.

I wonder how many lives were damaged by Kerouac publishing this filthy treatise? Or is it just a sign of the times? Is it the thought the Comanche could have existed in isolation hunting buffalo and not exploiting other people? If I followed correctly, they subsisted on tribute, not buffalo. Is it just the presentation? The Comanche, like most of the nomadic Plains cultures, were hunter-gatherers that used buffalo as their subsistence base.

Tribute was more of a sideline, although capture and forced or semi-forced integration of people from neighboring cultures — both European and Indian — seems to have been more economically important for them than for your average Indian culture, at least during the era of European contact. Part of it might just be that mosaics of tribal raiding cultures are very common and can apparently be stable — you can see echoes of that sort of thing in the older European epics like the Ulster Cycle, for example, although those would have been pastoralists rather than foragers.

Pretty hard for me to issue a blanket condemnation of something when it describes hundreds or thousands of years of history, including many of my own ancestors. I find it quite easy to issue blanket condemnations of hundreds or thousands of years of history including my own ancestors.

And in some ways we are; the murder rate in , for example, was fantastically, sillily high by our standards. But societies are largely collections of adaptations to circumstance, and the stability of a society gives you a lot of information about how well it works in its context.

The Plains horse cultures evolved remarkably quickly after contact with the Spanish, but they still only lasted two, three hundred years before they got steamrolled by the western expansion of the US. You could make a case based on those two or three hundred years, and the Comanche were one of the more successful variations on that theme, but I was more drawing a parallel to older European and Arabic, Central Asian, etc.

Suffice it to say that any given culture is going to be dealing with both Moloch and Elua. Those cultures did more herding and less hunting, no buffalo herds in siberia, but were otherwise pretty similar and they were a threat to settled societies from the breeding of horses big enough to ride roughly BC down to the spread of serious gunpowder weapons in the 16th century. The equilibrium had always been that all the Indian tribes fought and raided each since long before the Comanches existed, and the Comanches were simply better at it.

The Comanches minus their cruelty are…pretty much any other Indian tribe, actually, and I think in that post I made it clear I was praising general Indian virtues rather than specifically Comanche ones. The Beats minus their criminality are…I dunno. I have no problem with vagrants. Then, OTOH, there is the little difference that they also put themselves in far more danger of dying than the Beats did. Courage has its points. Did the commanches have virtues, though?

Thus, we judge a couple tribeless cads more sharply for lying to women than we do the comanche tribe for torturing entire families to death.

Out of the big pre-modern ways of living, agrarian society is the only one that leads to a modern world, but hunter-gatherers and nomadic herdsmen seem to have way better lives. Of course that assumes a rational person is allowed to notice the important differences in thinking between men and women. Speaking past each other. Galatea was the rule not the exception in terms of how the cads treated women.

The argument is that if behaving sociopathically was an obstacle to getting laid, men would quickly stop doing it. Also, plenty of men make disastrous sexual choices.

Maybe the rates are different — I have little idea of how to estimate proportions like these without my answer being determined by confirmation bias. The amount of books with bad people as heroes has moved softened discourse and response past this reaction. See any critical analysis of: Henry Miller and Steinbeck also did travel across the country novels. Kesey followed up Kerouac in the bus Further, driving across the U. What might cause difficulties for some readers is that Claire, and the other women in the novel, are there to help or hinder him.

She helps him—and he helps her. They are in love. She is there because Kepesh has fallen in love with a sane and calm and consoling woman after having been unhappily married to a difficult and exciting woman he was unable to handle. Someone more doctrinaire than you might tell me that the state of being in love, particularly of being passionately in love, is no basis for establishing permanent relationships between men and women.

From what I hear this damn seeping away of desire happens all the time and is extremely distressing to the people involved. Kerouac is not some dispassionate writer, who is merely describing the way in which real people think. Dean Moriarty is undoubtedly presented as a spiritual model. And Roth was not exactly a dispassionate writer either.

Drawing a hard line as either spiritual model or criminal seems dense. You can read The Republic literally: Or you can read it like Bloom: You can guess which interpretation I side with, and what that means about drawing hard lines.

I just nubbed it up with blockquotes. Also, by drawing a hard line on the two ways to read Plato. You could take any contradictory or bad point in the Republic and say that it really, truly is a reduction to absurdity. Precise distinctions are what make reliable analytical work possible. But I am not merely describing what it is like to think like a person like me. I am stating, affirming, and advancing my propositions and way of thinking as correct.

I am endorsing what I say. He is not endorsing the way his characters are; he is describing the way in which a person like his characters would think. This move defends Roth from certain claims.

I am saying that Kerouac cannot make this same move. There is clear endorsement, Dean is clearly a figure to be admired, who, in fact, has been admired by generations of counter-culturalists. If you are determined to say that Kerouac is a mere describer, I think that you remove any power that the novel could have had which is,in fact, very little , and turn it into an entirely banal thing.

Villain protagonists are great, but the author needs to be aware that they are villains, otherwise it is just unintentional values dissonance. Also, it helps to have a full-on villain rather than just a douchebag. One, asking if something is a true and skillful depiction of reality, and the other asking whether this depiction is, in a utilitarian manner, a sum positive act.

For example, it is possible this novel does many good things as a work of art, but is a bad book for leading many people astray, causing them to become dicks and erode good norms, and destroy their lives with drugs, unplanned pregnancies, and general vagabondery?

Roth himself could be further encouraging poor male behavior by depicting it. This approach is really attractive for obvious reasons, but it has some huge downsides…. But humorously, versatile liars often neglect to lie to an audience they assume will be on their side. A mostly valid assumption in this case. So who knows — it might actually be true. I agree that their behavior was not morally impeccable, but it is not necessarily the reason to dismiss the book as a work of art itself.

Books are well written, or badly written. Tell that to the people who take books like this or Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas as guides to life. The opera Carmen is another, older version of celebrating irresponsibility plus freedom. The situation is reversed, because it is an attractive woman, who ruins somebodys life and abandons him without guilt.

She also has this traveling lifestyle, the gypsy version, mules, not cars. Yeah, and she is killed, but not scared or subdued. I must say I found the plot appealing as a teenager. I am a woman, but some men seem fascinated, too. And, as others say here, I have grown up to a reasonably decent adult. Maybe it meant just a fantasy escape from uncertainty and guilt of everyday life. I kind of fear to read the original novel.

In the opera, the Roma only commit petty-ish crimes like smuggling. To me, Carmen was fairly blameless. Don Jose was the one with the problem thinking control and stability was possible after forsaking it consciously. His life was ruined before the opera started. See, when I went to see Carmen I read it as a parody…I giggled my way through the death scene.

Jadagul, you are not alone. I once experienced a bunch of schoolchildren, who were semi-forcibly taken to the opera theater to see the piece. They were restless throughout those 2 hours or so, poor creatures. I always had a very strong connection to the basic feeling of the thing. I actually try to live like that. The misogyny and freeloading is a real disappointment.

I have been suitably convinced by Beat memoirs to never, ever take amphetamine. What does that tell you about how you ought to live? The hippies made a much more serious stab at that.

And the unfortunate thing is that people trying to create entirely new forms of life often make mistakes, including genuinely cruel and immoral mistakes. A counted number of pulses only is given to us of a variegated, dramatic life. How may we see in them all that is to to be seen in them by the finest senses? How shall we pass most swiftly from point to point, and be present always at the focus where the greatest number of vital forces unite in their purest energy.

To burn always with this hard, gem-like flame, to maintain this ecstasy, is success in life. Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

The only thing that really worried me was the ether. My conservative side says that trickster archetypes who survive by exploiting the tendency of squares to be decent people are just being jerks. I could forgive some cruel and immoral mistakes, given some evidence of awareness, ethics, and moral growth.

Some drugs make a crime spree feel like wonder and adventure. So the book could deliberately have all three aspects, plus an unreliable narrator. Recall that Huxley wrote about drugs without hurting anybody, though. Forrest Gump , no, plenty of negatives. Huckleberry Finn — actually most of it was negative things.

Candide , very negative. Don Quixote , certainly no lack of negatives. Those could be realistic and probably good stories but, for various reasons, unlikely to be so well known. Fast forward 20 years to The Butterfly Kid. Better drugs, really good people irresponsible and not doing much for society, except saving the world from the blue lobsters. From my perspective, this is a review of the book, not the movie. The book is about disenfranchised guys that return from WWII, rather shattered, unable to sit still.

It had become to expensive to them to maintain, so they were attempting to escape from having to steward the Trust Society Destroying it in the process. I tend to think it was assholes like Kerouac that really pushed feminism. I imagine one of the things theses guys felt oppressed by was patriarchal expectations. Feminism has made jerks like Dean far more common place.

It would be much easier to float through life having sex with strong independent women only stopping to pay for the occasional abortion. Actually, they do realize. And Kerouac was a conservative Catholic, unlikely to have been pushing feminism. The exciting life is that jacked-up only for the very insensitive. Much of that work was routine and required no special skill. In either case, the company would lose an amount equal to the resources expended on hiring and training him—that is to say, approximately jack squat.

The oversupply of low-skilled jobs was certainly an enabling factor of this kind of lifestyle, but high-trust was a factor as well. There are a lot now, and there were more back then. Kerouac was a working-class East Coast Catholic—at a time when a very great number of people in America actually had a much-greater-than-zero amount of care about those last two things. You put a ton of thought into your review. I think I read On the Road when I was an 18 yr old soldier.

At the time it was a nice escape from my regimented life and I was able to live vicariously through the characters for a little while. I can confirm the accuracy of your description of Kerouac. Nor did I con people into funding my narcissistic search for truth.

The adventures of the beat generation these days seem pointless and self indulgent. One of my favorite notions on the subject of morality in literature not verbatim: Books raise moral questions. There is only good and bad literature.

This is good literature. Many of my college professors happened to at least cameo in this book or Dharma Bums — including the one who walked us through the text.

If it helps, apparently when the book became popular, Kerouac basically told everyone to sometimes literally get off his porch when they came asking for him to roadtrip it with them. A terrible book about terrible people. All of respectable society would have viewed his actions as outrageous. And if the women were too trusting of him, that kind of suggests that their ordinary experience of men was that they were honest and prepared to shoulder the responsibilities of marriage, so they were unprepared when confronted with selfish sociopaths.

Gone With the Wind has a similar issue. The story is a series of identical cycles, Scarlet sees something she wants, uses her sex appeal to get it often several lives in the process , becomes dissatisfied with it immediately upon acquisition, then sets her sights on something new and repeats.

Each cycle was something needed for that purpose; starting a new cycle was to add extra security, or because a new threat had arisen. I really appreciate a reasonable, cynical critique of hipster bullshit. The whole thing is vacuous and juvenile and appeals to a certain kind of existential angst, like Catcher in the Rye but with more sex.

I wonder where you would place Bukowski, as Hank Chinaski, in your thesis. Many of the same variables are in play: Is he the blue-collar realist that counterbalances Kerouac, or just more of the same?

I would note that I would have some concern about an unreliable narrator here. Hell, Travels with Charley had an unreliable narrator. I think the difference between fun-evil and tedious-evil characters is that fun evil characters have interesting goals, and we have some idea the book knows they are evil.

This is played as excellent news. Neal Cassady Moriarty in the book was a psychopath. Just think of James Bond or Clint Eastwood or the characters he plays on screen at least. Glad to learn I was right to never finish this book. When I tried to read it, I just thought, wow, this Dean guy would be miserable to hang out with, a drunken asshole.

Still, I understood why Jack liked him, because there is something seductive about transgression. And there are transgressive characters I prefer to Dean. Anyway, I need to leave this blog for now. I read On the Road when I was in the 7th grade.

They call themselves holy but holiness costs and so far as I can see they pay nothing. A good look at St. John of the Cross makes them all look sick. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets.

What would you do if an old man with a beard and a staff walks into your room, requests you for a glass of water and upon having given him the said glass of water, proceeds to warn you against reading the wizard of oz because it is actually a book about a young girl with a propensity to murder?

Seligman added the component of a ringing bell just before a shock is administered. The dog came to react to the sound alone as if shocked. The bell was in no way helpful to the animal. In the second phase of the experiment, the dog was placed in a crate with a low wall bisecting it, on one side lay the shocking grid, but not on the other. Did the dog jump to the safe side when he heard the bell?

No, he did not. Seligman explained this behavior as learned helplessness. The dog had learned in the first phase and the bell ring that the shock would follow and could not be avoided. There may be a safe place to escape the violence, but few have been trained to jump that wall. Learned Helplessness may be a bit of a spin on Human Intelligence, where one should eventually learn not to become unduly concerned over things that one has no control over.

Luhr Were I resigned to failure or helplessness, I might agree, but in both cases, I am not. Any human in your second part of the experiment would step over the partition…yet the dog, not gifted with intelligence, does not…and yet the results define humans in conditions of want or helplessness?

Great stuff for Psych 1A…. I feel humans have a special obligation, a responsibility to these animals. I have a suspicion that ours a rescue greyhound might survive for a while assuming she could get out the house on the local cats and squirrels — probably cats more than squirrels if past successes are anything to go by I rescued the cat that came into our garden and got caught, but the squirrels are better with trees.

However, she would probably end up being run over by a car, since her breed is not overly bright and needs to be kept on a lead unless in a space with high walls or fences.

Were they not more about deference to authority, e. The dog racing world is not a pretty one. Alba, My question was pointed at the topic in discussion…not attempting to be unfriendly. USA is the evil player the meddler, the instigator. Always is, always will be. Nobody needs sunk American warships in Mediterranean and a blowout of dollar financial system, except for the Black Project — Clinton War Party. Rather than dominion uber alles it raptures unter allen: Thing is, all of this long precedes the Clintons.

Obama was at least as warlike as Bush and Cheney before him, although they will always be the recognized masters of the cause for presiding over The cause is far deeper, much wider, and infinitely more profound than a mere renegade faction within the current US government. She had every possible advantage and yet still found a way to lose.

Dow up pts as of CST. FincaInTheMountains April 9, at 4: And then there was the matter of the dancing Israelis on a nearby roof. Actually, watch Domino Pizza deliveries to the Pentagon, they always spike when some military action is about to go down. Thousands of personnel stay late and order pizza. Sit there on the parking lot and watch the pizza deliveries. I was at the U. Army cargo port in Bremerhaven in where I saw the new tanks and other gear rolling off the ships as part of the Reagan defense buildup.

Another pier over was a Polish freighter that NEVER left the doc; it was covered with antennae, a spy ship, just sit there and count the tanks rolling off the ramp. You trusted the black guy and his yellow cake! Avatar, What I do not trust is some of the women rolled out by the Pentagon to explain to us either warfare or weapons systems…women who are straight-up academics, and have no experience other than that experienced behind a book. A PhD has little value without concomitant experience…at least concerning military matters.

Many men can achieve the rank of general including the four star rank. Few survive their Rockbound Highland Home for four years and finish on top. Then it was quietly dumped. Because it describes US foreign policy and its consequences way too well. Earth is sending rocket after rocket after rocket to Mars.

But the natives are not too enthusiastic about being democratized meaning colonized. Consequences for the Americans who chose to settle in this City of Brotherly Love were lethal. First time I read this book under duress. Then my luck ran out and I was caught. Library was the only option left for a kid with no pocket money. One Martian woman fell in love with an Astronaut. Her Husband killed him with a rifle that shot bees.

How the hell can we afford to militarily intervene in all these places and then leave troops behind for indeterminate number of years until the places figure out what to do, and what we want them to do to boot.

No wonder we are broke. Damn why waste the breath. Interestingly, a number of Jihadist gangs are now switched to fighting under the Turkish command. On the 4th of this month, in a meeting in Ankara, Putin Erdogan Rouhani agreed not to attack each other. Very reminiscent of the Hitler Stalin pact over Poland. So last week Trump says we are getting out of Syria and now all of a sudden the Syrians are using chemical weapons.

Today it was all SyriaSyriaSyria and chemical weapons. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. Crude oil is thicker than water. A segment of Syrian pipeline saves nine. An ounce of intervention is worth a pound of fair and honest diplomacy.

The proof of the insurgency is in the ease of stripping a country of its wealth. Make havoc while the Security Council sits on its hands.

John Bolton is a Bush man, part of the consensus between the Bushes and Trump. Bush in — it just did not spilled out into the media at that time. Obama fought bravely and several times saved the world from the nuclear war, just as his grandfather — John F. Hitler was also made possible by a number of factors besides US actions. Stalin acquiesced to Hitler, allying Russia with Germany to buy time.

Had Stalin the industrial base necessary, the Russians would have subsumed Europe before the Germans got started. This will prove an unmitigated disaster for the long suffering Russian people. Even as these events unfold, American captains of industry and their fat dumb stockholders strain to tie up every bit of transport, food production and utilities infrastructure with entangling electronic complexities and GPS crutch.

How does that compute O Yo Whiz Kids? Grampa here, ever so not P. He was a mass murderer. It may say something about your Dad though…. To give him his due, Janos has made some mealy-mouthed statements about not agreeing with everything Hitler was responsible for. You are currently living in one, and are currently pissing it away. They are preferable to normal people, right?

I did not ask for your views on coerced sterilisation. I am still waiting to hear that one. And possibly how your Catholic views on sterilisation of any kind relate to the official Catholic dogma on contraception. I hope it was sufficient for you, although you did not acknowledge it. Janos did not later retract it, so we can assume he is quite happy with it as a sentiment.

So Japan is evil? And bringing in millions of Negroes and Muslims will make for peace? How ridiculous can you get? Any thoughts on the fate of Whites in South Africa? What is it that you want to know exactly? Hitler was a very great man, as both Lloyd George and John F Kennedy among others were willing to admit.

The compromised Churches, both Protestant and Catholics, joined the Judeo-Masonic Illuminati and made war against the Light that had appeared in Germany.

Obviously the Church is not infallible as it pretends to be. Aquinas for all his brilliance, simply knew nothing about any of this. Christ said the Holy Spirit would be our Teacher. When I brought up the lack of evidence of the Holocaust, all you could do was threaten to tell the Teacher. The thing about the Nazis is that they anally kept records of everything they did, which was helpful.

Alba, I am sorry, but I did not see the example. Are you referring to the outrages involving killing the infirm? Why would you conflate that with hate? Why would you expect murder to be a result of hate?

Murder then was done as a matter of law…policy. Even the Jews admitted they lost and vowed no more trials — just lock him up.

Nor all the ridiculous books about escaping the Camps and being raised by wolves, etc. Eugenics is all about having the superior have more kids and the inferior having fewer. What part of that do you have a problem with? Do you reject the whole notion of superior and inferior? Then you have a problem with Reality or God, because it is simply obvious, like a is a.

The Feminist Criterion of Life unworthy of Life is personal convenience — which is simply despicable. Nothing is lower than that, absolutely nothing. The most dangerous place on Earth is now the Womb. Or is it only the little people who earn your outrage? I hope that is clear enough for you, elysianfield.

It should be possible for you to answer without whataboutery. All those things are crimes against the people involved, crimes that erode the legitimacy of the effort if they leave it any legitimacy at all. The prime example of the successful creation of an ethno-state in our times is, of course, Israel.

The ongoing mistreatment, dispossession and imprisoning of the Palestinian population is a disgrace which Israel must redress. Alba, Cutting through the hysteria and labeling appeals to me. When Janos is right, which is often, I agree with him. When he is wrong, I, instead of dismissively labeling him, argue. If you are correct, pound the facts, If you are virtuous, pound the meme, If you are wrong, pound the table…. This is how he can carry on denying an enormously well-documented historical event, for example.

For the most part, I tend to limit myself to correcting his grosser slanders, particularly the ones against me, and to general colour commentary. I am not the only person who picks up on hate in relation to Janos. Perhaps we are all misguided. I am called various names by Janos. And I maintain, in particular, pounding the fact or not, that if someone cannot come out and say unequivocally that systematically murdering disabled people is evil, then I am entitled to ask why not.

Because knowing that about a person colours everything that person says in terms of the worldview they constantly defend. Also, Janos pushes a world view that he would like to see enacted. I believe that Janos, if given absolute authority, would conduct himself much more humanely than you might expect. He is intelligent and grounded in reality…it is the reality part that I find interesting.

He was educated by the Jesuits he diminishes the experience, however , and their imprimatur is evident. People who live in Nations which reflect their race, tradition, and history will be largely free from problems. Without problems you have no clients. No money in other words. You keep trying to interrogate me without submitting to my interrogation. Janos, I am surprised that our host allows Holocaust Denial to be discussed as I think he usually does not. For what it is worth I started looking into it before Christmas.

So I made sure I got it elsewhere. The umpire should call the fight off because the others cannot put up a decent defence. I was reading Aly earlier today and he was talking about the extermination of the mentally sick by the Germans. They realized, he argues, that they could only do it if it was camouflaged and hidden from public view.

Of course, Jimmy Savile. Eye-witness testimony is heavily relied upon, for want of anything else. He caught her eye and immediately turned off the street and crossed the hospital grounds before entering through the window and abusing her.

I am not sure if the convoluted writing is intended to hide it as he does not seem to see any problem with the thesis. The stories coming out of Syria are the latest variation.

I suppose Jordan Peterson could go looking for an archetype somewhere. If only because that is what they all say. As always one must ask, what are they afraid of? Why did they turn History and its techniques and that now includes physical science into a moral issue, and one infected by virulent hysteria?

I cannot agree about sexual abuse however. It is an enormous reality among the Elite. If they had gotten it into the boat, it would have cut them to pieces like a pound sword fish.

Frightened, the perps then went after them one by one threatening law suits. Joe Biggs resigned from Infowars once Alex Jones backed down.

I noticed when teaching that the real liars would keep making up new lies to cover their tracks and send you on a wild goose chase, knowing that sooner or later you would run out of time and give up. A curious thing about such liars is how bad they are at it.

You should dig for facts for the sexual abuse stories. Their absence is stunning. You have probably heard of the Tuam Babies, with evil nuns and persecuted young women, dead babies thrown into sewage tanks and generally Evil all round. I am all for it, but I would be surprised if they go ahead.

What have they to lose? I have read of one or two abuse scandals, in America, where the story gets out of hand. And then they bring in the diggers. And then it is over and nobody wants to be reminded.

While there are often parties who stand to gain in witch hunts such as lawyers in food scares this is not the main driver. For some reason most seem to want to believe that it is, to have something tangible to point to.

The idea that it is mainly just pointless hysteria is a difficult one to swallow for them, but not for others like me. That is an interesting psychological problem. In his precocious study of the mysterious, extraordinary rise of the Swinging Sixties in England, The Neophiliacs, Christopher Booker identifies fantasy with evil. I am not sure I agree but it is a powerful idea all the same and worth bearing in mind. Just to clarify I would support Israel in the main but am forced, rather grudgingly, to accept that the Palestinians have a case.

I understand that those living there admit in private that they are much better off than they would otherwise be but cannot do so in public. And, an empire that will crumble and fade away. And really, this whole affair is just plain embarrassing for would be conspiracists everywhere. Well the Skripals themselves will be missing soon enough being given an new identity out there somewhere over the atlantic. What a calculated insult.

No doubt some of our posters will be very pleased of course. They were Cultural Giants despite that — the Progenitors of America, the leaders of the West for the last five hundred years. Hitler had the deepest admiration for them. To dismiss them like this shows a deep gap in your understanding. If you trash them, you must trash America. And then you are with the Enemies of our Race. We must all hang together at this point, or we will hang separately.

What am I saying? We need a completely New Order. Get a grip, man. Do you blame all Canadians for Elrond? Or all Scots for Alba? As in every other country? Impeachment is currently not viable. But if something incriminating and really offensive is found, would Trump resign? He may need more than sprinklers to put out this possible fire.

A man dies, and Trump praises the Tower in his tweet. High caste and low class. In over a decade of being here the overall tone today is different.

A lot more confusing impossibilities have been introduced than usual. A casual reader searching for answers about Syria would be Syryasly befuddled with the contradictions.

Perhaps that is the point. I find it odd he would say so, we were not arguing at all. I found dannyboy a bit amusing myself not that I will miss him. I will also take the comment from a commenter immediately after who I have never seen before saying that arguing with me is like wrestling with a pig in the mud as a complement. Thank you very much. I like it when trolls give themselves away. Finally it took his senses, and he was trapped inside his own mind, helpless.

This is exactly what is happening to America. The media is our nervous system — and it fell to the Enemy long ago. This is the very book I read 50 years ago. And I was immensely inspired by the cover: Bradbury meant Evil Financial Carnival? A great skull would roll to view, like a snowball; they shouted!

Ribs, like spider legs, plangent as a dull harp, and then the black flakes of mortality blowing all about them in their scuffling dance; the boys pushed and heaved and fell in the leaves, in the death that had turned the dead to flakes and dryness, into a fame played by boys whose stomachs gurgled with orange pop.

Most folks are just trying to find some truth, to find a few drops of clarity in the increasingly muddied waters, not just on this forum, but all media. If the game plan is to make folks throw up their hands and give up….. Maybe I should check in more often. Meanwhile, the resident Nazi racist seems to spew his Daily Stormer-inspired shtick with impunity. There would probably be a lot more pictures of children dead from gas.

More than one bomb would be needed before a Hildabeast attack and then she would use a lot of cruise missiles. The Trumpasaur will just get irritated, call the media to tell them they all lie and are fake and then go drop a MOAB after he takes a dump. Same thing, different style. I love these people who know exactly what will happen in the future. And that evil lawyer Whatshisface Cohen, who is protecting that nasty man who occupies the Oval Office, is going to have his own Auto da Fe courtesy of the FBI because he made illegal campaign contributions wtf?

Mueller seeing blood and guilt, indictments and federal convictions dancing in his head. WHat does this have to do with Russian involvement again? Neither can the Russians and the Iranians. While the Chinese are having a heck of a good laugh. Any way one slices it Bill; the way our Clusterfuck Nation and Clusterfuck Planet are headed, it is going to be worse.

Much worse, I suspect, than we can even possibly imagine. The following rumors and conspiracy theories are a mixture of statements on the forums Infowars, Breitbart News and FaceBook pages of various Trump fans. Yesterday, having convinced myself on these forums that the nuclear war had finally begun, I decided to sleep off for the last time, and waking up still in this world half-asleep turned to work and only remember her, my dear, in a couple of hours. I restarted the router for 5 minutes and for half an hour moving my mouse on my computer, turned to my sources from the Union Square, where I was attacked by a mudflow of fierce conspiracy and quite plausible leaks.

And I decided to put it all in the form of a story in which my conclusions that are based on quite reliable information will go in the ordinary font, my guesses, based on intuition and artistic truth, will be shared in italics, and conspiracy will be highlighted in bold.

So, the satanists of the Black Project, having received from their Master assurances of reserving important positions for them down there, and having heard from the Orthodox that the doors of Hell are open, they have mixed all up and decided that they are open for the entrance, not for the exit, and have rushed to claim their positions, for fear of competition and thieving coreligionists.

Well versed in Christian theology, they decided to arrange for this on the Orthodox Easter nuclear war and gave the command to the white helmets in Syria to shoot a film about the fresh use by Assad of chlorine for the antiterrorist disinfection of one of the suburbs of Damascus.

These white helmets, which the Syrian military ordered not to take prisoners, are engaged in Syria in taking people apart for organs, preferring, of course, to earn money on children allegedly poisoned by chemical weapons of Assad, they decided to cheat a little since lungs affected by chlorine are not needed by anyone, and this time they decided to get away with filming only, especially since the chemical laboratory created by the British SAS in East Ghuta was already captured by the government troops.

Meanwhile, a Black Project in order to force Trump to bomb in Syria in full force, and not as a year ago, when he arranged, by agreement with Putin, to test the Russian anti-Electronic Weapons and launched 59 tomahawks that killed 6 people, four of whom were traitors and agents of the Black Project , who installed a chemical warhead on the Syrian aircraft, one of which talked with Assad when the US tomahawk arrived homed on the cell phone signal, decided this time to seize the Trump family hostage to and set up a fire in Trump-Tower.

But something went wrong and the special forces of the Blacks in Trump-Tower were shot, and Melania Trump was taken out on an armored helicopter, but while the battle was still going on and the launch of the helicopter was dangerous because of possible MANPADS, Trump published three tweets, the last of which was written when the helicopter was already in the air.

A romantic version of poisoned skies is fine for some people, if you wish. The intrepid boys from Foggy Bottom have altered reality sanctioning new toxic clouds as bona fide classifications. Anyways, Grandma Moses would have been liked the painting which at least demonstrates a longing for a certain pastoral habitat.

Texas subsidized a Lesbian couple who adopted six Black kids from Texas, only to abuse, starve and then kill them and themselves. Lauded and adored by the Liberals wherever they went, they always tried to stay in the media spotlight. Apparently the kids were their props — and possibly their sole meal ticket as well. But the kids wanted to eat too and that was a problem.

How do we stop Whites from adopting Blacks kids and abusing them? Especially Gay and Lesbian Whites?

Gay Male couples adopting little boys? What a great idea, right Liberals? Is horse face Mueller in the homestretch, anyone want to handicap this race? Will he win, place, or just show? Remember, horse face is no nag, and he just may be a Deep State front runner.

Trump is right to attack illegal immigrants and to question immigration in general. We need more xenophobia. Good luck with blocking railroads and shutting down corporate buildings. You may get a jail cell, a fractured skull, or both. He goes over the edge. It looks to me Chris needs a vacation from the endless travails of empire. I am too harsh, but I know his passion and his angst comes off as crazy when he does not get enough sleep.

Civil war ended years ago today. Till about the mid s this day was highly celebrated and commemorated with ceremonies at places like Appomatox CH, Antietam and Gettysburg. Now after 6 generations it warrants hardly a mention, except maybe for a few self rightious lefties eager to pull down Confederate memorials.

I see now some groups are angling to destroy monuments depicting William McKinley and Theodore Roosevelt. They are routinely vandalized. Carrying a knife is a felony. He stated there is no reason in the world why anyone would need a knife. Also, you cannot order a knife thru the mail. In addition to this it is illegal to carry Acid. Yes, the Africans, Middle Easterners and Pakis stabbing one another on the streets apparently like to thro acid in passerbys face as well.

Sounds like a real paradise, like New San Francisco. I hope this knife control scheme works out for you. If not the next thing to be banned will be fists and feet, which can be used to harm others. Maybe one can substitute a letter opener? A letter opener Infidel dog! The London authorities will have to now ban letter openers, staple guns, and those big ass paper cutters, the kind sold in stationery stores.

Holy Shiite and what about lethal scissors? Think of the giants who have called London home thoughout the centuries, soldiers, kings, authors, artists, politicians, reformers … all the way back to Roman times, and look at London now. And quite right too. Nor will they need to. And I have a letter opener too — and can buy another one whenever I want. But as I pointed out earlier, Glasgow, which is actually only 45 miles away from me, used to have a reputation much worse than London for knife crime.

It gloried in a reputation as the gangland murder capital of Europe. And now it has many more black and brown faces, but the violent crime face has disappeared.

I hope it works there as well. That violence accompanies black and brown people is axiomatic, not empirical. They could run amok with those knitting needles. I kinda thought you or brh would pick up on that. Call it ageist profiling if you like. Sorry to disappoint you. And the thing is, that same correlation crosses borders. There was a correlation with gangs I expect they have gangs in Russia too, without colour being involved.

Sorry you feel the need to carry a weapon. The more people carry weapons, the more weapons will be used. Weapon inflation is like that.

They think it will make them safer. I would advise you to always carry a weapon — blade, pepper spray, kubotan, screwdriver, stun gun. I realize as a woman you think everyone is of good will and would never harm you, but guess what?

I have carried my knife for many years and it did save my life on one occasion but not in use against a human being. In any event, your idea about weapon inflation is laughable. I mentioned a grab bag of items above that either are weapons or can be used as weapons. Being in the centre of the city is safe.

Going to the cinema to meet a friend in the evening and making my way home on the bus is utterly safe. All of it without feeling remotely threatened, although I pay attention. The only sign of delinquency you can see is when the metal shutter is pulled down in front of the mosque which looks a bit like a corner shop showing the graffiti sprayed on by some anti-Muslim yobs.

Muslims in our countries have more to fear from us than we do from them. And my husband worked his way through medical school by joining the Irish territorials. I daresay he could fish out a scalpel from his bag but not within any useful time!

Carrying a weapon would be an excellent way of being struck off the medical register, though. Not everywhere is quite as safe as the streets I frequent. My daughter who now lives in the country that puts you in jail for dropping chewing gum on the pavement lived in Manchester for years. But you have to let them live their lives. I worry less than I did when I was younger, although I was never neurotic about being out and about.

Never had to, though. People walking behind you when you are going home from an evening out are almost always just other people going home too and mostly they are actually couples. I refuse to become neurotic about walking in the streets of my own city. But again, thanks for your concern.

I know you mean it sincerely. Alba, we tell ourselves stories, about ourselves, about our environment, to make sense of who we are and how we fit into it. You can rely on statistics until you become a victim and then you will disregard the statistics. The statistics are a story, a narrative that you are telling yourself.

I too live in a very safe environment, statistically. One has to laugh at the busybodies on the local Nextdoor. Two competing narratives, each more or less bearing a resemblance to reality I think much less so in the latter case. I was out last night walking. Lots of other people were out. It was fairly warm here yesterday so more people are out at night to enjoy the cool air.

So people are passing saying hello but you can barely see twenty feet ahead of you. It reminded me of another night a couple of years back when after midnight I encountered a young girl on a bicycle who passed me. She had stopped at a distance and her head-light was shining on me.

So we tell ourselves stories about who we are and about our place in this world. Anyway, got to run, lots to do today. The risks I take, such as they are and they are vanishingly small are informed risks. And those statistics tell me, among other things, that crime can fall over a prolonged period while the fear of crime inexorably rises. Handjobs , Hand , Hands.

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