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NZ struggles to attract skilled workers and industry it needs. The overvalued NZ dollar destroys competition for local producers, manufacturers and exporters, yet this government takes a total hand off approach.
You preach nonsense that has not worked anywhere else, and while the rest of the world is looking at alternative solutions, you and your preferred government wants to stick to laissez faire, purist, neo liberal, capitalist measures, that are being abandoned all over the world. Good luck Damien with Planet Key! Despite all the evidence to the contrary. When has a libertarian approach been tried? Child poverty in New Zealand exists despite the massive redistribution of assets. You cannot blame capitalism and the rich, the rich pay an awful lot of tax, the poor receive an awful lot of benefits.
Interestingly even in countries that many social democratic i. On top of this we have a situation where the dynamism in an economy i. Countries stagnate due solely to capitalism. The government stepped in over time as it failed to meet the needs of the country and society. D Grant How do you live with yourself spreading so much disinformation?
These people run on a very basic rule — your net wealth is your moral worth to society. To them, most people have no net wealth hence no moral worth to consider whatsoever. I think an orphan in the third world has a greater need than a middle class new Zealand citizen. Our GDP is m, govt spending is 73 b. The system being tried is a socialist one. If you are unhappy about poverty in new Zealand you cannot blame the libertarians and their fellow travelers. In our world govt spending would be about ten billion.
The person stuck without a job has no choice Mr Grant; you are perfectly at liberty to help the orphan in the third world because you have an income. And there are going to be more people stuck without jobs if we carry on the way we are going. I guess it is when the benefit gets entirely cut, minimum wages go even further down and people start breaking into your or your friends house and raiding your cupboards will you really start to engage with the policies you promote.
You are saying we need to be spending even more money to give these unemployed jobs? I look forward to a serious political movement taking up your ideas and push them to the electorate at the next election. Will you be involved in this political movement CV? They walk away from that transaction better off than they were before. The way to extract real wealth is to insert your own men inside the machinery of governments and get free bailouts and QE to the tune of tens of billions of dollars.
For the smaller scale capitalist, simple zero value add ticket clipping from core economic infrastructure and services will suffice. No I was saying that you have plenty of liberty when you are on a reasonable salary to do whatever you wish, whereas you do not seem to be aware of this with your statement: If we keep on following policies that wait around for the wealthiest to supply jobs, while allowing such phenomenon as the futures market; the commodifying of money and "legitimate tax evasion" to carry on unaddressed we will be waiting around forever.
It may not be that we need to spend more money on those in less privileged positions; it may be that it is more efficient to address the above and such things as the monopoly effect of corporations. These issues have only ever been considered detrimental to the capitalist system by those great minds who people favour citing; if they existed at all at the time these writers were writing.
The rich are worth helping and exalting, the poor are to be disregarded as baggage. I have written on a number of topics, including the importance of protecting property rights that can be traced to the treaty of waitangi. I have written at my disgust at the failings of the finance company trustees and my dislike of the use of sham trusts that are used to hide assets. I have not said that NZ should help the poor in africa, I have said I would prefer to help starving africians than pay for tummy tucks for middle class kiwis.
Because someone is next to me, does that mean that they are more deserving of support than someone far away. It does mean that they can unite, vote, and force the state to take my assets, however.
It also means you can better identify the problem, identify the causes of the problem, have some idea of the extent of the problem, and identify solutions. If you have a better political system, present it. Surely GDP is closer to bn is it not, not million, and talking about orphans, they all deserve sympathy, support and help, no matter where they were born and live. Given the fact that living costs do to this date also vary greatly between nations despite of all talk of globalisation and so on , it is possible to support an orphan in a poor African country quite well with a few dollars a day.
But living in NZ means having to look at living costs and conditions here. So such comparisons are a bit frivolous, to be honest. NZ is not socialist, but at the same time, it is true, that there is no country applying a per cent pure capitalist approach either, as it would be a damned rascal of a place to live in, soon to be overcome by a stiff revolution by the ones not prepared to put up with the due injustices. So, here is an idea. Lets stop paying for IVF for middle class New Zealand citizens and pensions for wealthy kiwis and use that money to make a huge difference to the lives of the really poor?
Is it because you may benefit from welfare in NZ and, secretly, you cannot give a toss about the poor in third world countries but care deeply about making sure that the wealthy in NZ are forced to pay for your education, health and pension. Yes, the starving people will be so grateful to you for replicating their plight in New Zealand.
Oh, by the way: A country where people are not afraid to put their real names to their views and do not hide behind silly avatars like virtually everyone here. Bans have often been the result.
Every contributor is entitled to use a nom if they so choose. There are many people from all sides of the political spectrum who have good reasons not to have their identity known. Besides On the net there is no way to easily verify real names anyhow. But in the end it is our site and we will run it the way we want. Please consider this a fair and respectful warning. Millions of people watch American idol.
None of that means anything. If you think an idea is good because other people support it then you are nothing more than seaweed, flowing with the tide, bereft of independent thought. On the face of it an FTT sounds like a good idea, Gos, but as always the devil is in the detail. I certainly think it should be considered as an option. I agree it is a valid idea and one that should be looked at. Yet by your own logic it should be rejected out of hand because political parties supporting the concept failed to garner much electoral support at the last election.
Do you see now why trying to tie popularity of an idea to the value of that idea makes little sense? I asked if poor Damien has worked out the reason for the low level of support for his position; I made no statement about its validity. Damien Grant took your comments exactly as I did and exactly as anybody sensible would. That is you somehow think the idea lacks validity because of the lack of success of political parties pushing the policy at the last election. When I came to NZ many, many years ago from another part of the world I had for years job after job with NZ companies, all those employers paying me pittance.
For the first time I earned a real income, enabling me to not only live somewhat satisfactorily, but also save. Yes, I admit, in more recent years I was offered jobs by NZ employers also paying me better than in those years longer ago, but many locals and migrants still very often get paid pittance here by NZ employers, living only and barely from hand to mouth. I am still far away from any pension, and once I may get there, the NZ government will force me to access any pension entitlement I have from my native country first, to use that and then only pay the balance to the level the NZ retirement income would usually be.
So before you criticise my comments and come with your unfounded arguments, perhaps also think that there may be many that are not to blame, but rather victims of the ideology and market approach you and your like minded people come up with. High earners have never had it better. Yet people like this guy still moan that they are paying too much? The article debunked 3 common myths about child poverty. He explained why this view is incorrect. The very next day there was a letter to the paper going on about how it is all the parents fault and that they are mostly dole bludgers who live it up off taxpayers.
This is a classic case of cognitive dissonance. How can we ever hope to get through to these sorts of people who will not accept a certain view no matter how many facts are thrown at them? Yes Mike, and over the last 50 years the living standard of all has risen dramatically. Being poor in NZ in would be very different from being poor in NZ today. Depends on what you regard as support. Regardless of this the popularity of an idea is not necessarily a good indication of whether it is a worthwhile idea.
A Financial transaction tax might be a good idea yet not many people voted for parties that pushed this tax at the last election. Not so sure on that one.
Not so sure about that, either: However, I think a referendum on it would get quite a bit of turnout from both sides. Think of a reason why large numbers of the electorate voted for the National party other than for the reasons they generally support the basic philisophical view that the party stands for or that they are somehow too stupid and have been duped in to supporting a party they fundamentally disagree with.
Which particular National policies would have been attractive to people in your mind? Presentation might be regarded by many people as a rough metric for competence and clarity of direction.
So maybe most national voters think relative poverty is an important issue, but maybe they also think that the govt has done well managing the economy in these times so vote according to the issue that they think is more important.
Regardless the people in the party hold a particular ideological viewpoint that the voters would have to be aware of. If not then they are misinformed i. A failure of a party to convince you to vote for them tends to lead to a non vote in my view rather than a positive vote for another party, especially if that other party is the incumbent party of government. This is especially true under MMP, where you have multiple parties you could vote for without wasting your vote.
You would expect people to vote Green or even United Future instead of National. And you are talking about, at broadest, one ideological plank, not the entire party catechism. If you meant the level of support for National is indicative of a high level of support for the philsophical underpinnings of the National party then no I would not be willing to change my view on this.
I am not arrogant enough to assume that the electorate is as stupid as some on the left like to make out. Well, some are option 2 given that conservatives are more often dumb than liberals , but other reasons beyond specific policies to vote for any party are pretty obvious: Basically you admit that people have been duped into voting for National.
If you think people in the country are that stupid then you have a very jaded view of society. I prefer to think people in society are generally much smarter than you give them credit. Gosman, So you do not consider that the huge industry of marketing and the psychology research they conduct exists?
Or is it that you believe that the opinion manipulation tactics they apply have no effect? I believe there is no huge industry of marketing and the psychology research. If I wished to establish that people have 3 eyes I would have to provide some evidence of what I base my beliefs on. So in your opinion most people who voted national did so at least in part because of their underlying, but unexpressed, lack of concern about relative policy.
Also, in your opinion, politics is about the electorate rationally evaluating policy packages and voting accordingly, rather than any significant influence from political marketing and market research. I would think only a minority vote based upon policy apart from the occasional blips in voting from electorate bribes such as tax cuts, WFF, student loans. I never stated most. Do you know many National voting people?
Do you have particular evidence from the last election that you can point to that supports your view on this? But they still need corporate sponsorship to get to that level. So it slants the whole field to the big money candidates, and regardless of who wins, its always going to be one of them.
Quite possibly you are correct, but it would be good to get some actual evidence for your position rather than rely on your opinion.
There are many others. In the case of the election, no amount of spending could conceal the disunity of the Act caucus and board doing an emergency dump of their leader, standing a conservative idiot in their only winnable seat, and electing another political loser as their leader how many times has Brash lost elections now?
What was the message that they were trying to send to the voters? Vote for us and we will trough slightly to the right of National for another term? Gossie, its not a purely money issue, Labour is disconnected from many of its natural supporters, and basically they stayed home.
The problem with the poverty argument put forward nowdays is that it is relative poverty they are talking about not absolute. This leads to a circular argument as increased levels of inequality tends to increase the relative poverty level. Hence the main solution offered is to reduce income inequality.
Funnily enough the quickest way to tackle the relative poverty level would be to cut the incomes of the middle and increase the levels of the lowest. I doubt very much we will see this being pushed by many though.
Gosman, the policies you support have cut income levels for the middle class and those least well off. Unlikely I would suggest given the data. If income levels for the middle have been falling as you suggest then it would perversely likely lead to a fall in the relative poverty levels. I tell you what, rather than spend the next week with you dancing on the head of a pin, asking less and less pertinent questions in another vain attempt to spin the world to suit your visions, suck on this.
If you disagree with the view I have put forward I suggest it would be useful for you to point out the reasons you disagree rather than linking to irrelevant graphs. Where is your eveidence that incomes for the middle classes have been falling?
Forgot who I was arguing with. So how is your view that incomes for the middle classes is falling reconcile with this piece of information from the article? This would suggest incomes for the middle classes are increasing not decreasing as you think it is.
This article also supports the view that middle income earners in NZ are better off now than they were in the past. Ummmm… Median income is a pretty good indication of the level of income of the middle class. Most incomes have only just kept pace with inflation Gosman. Then you add on inflation of around 9. If you have evidence that the middle income earners in NZ have got poorer then please present it. BTW the Sofie survey that Statistics NZ collected and collated and which much of the data that the Child poverty group based its findings on was carried out for eight years starting from During this time it was the Labour party that was in power for the vast majority of the time.
Because they have less impact on the measure of relative poverty. Were you not aware of this fact? If relative poverty is related to inequality, what you state does not make sense to me. Those who have uber riches in each society have the most power and this also effects the well being of all. Such power can influence what people deem as valid political approaches; they have the resources to influence public opinion so that they support such things as tax cuts for the wealthiest at a time of recession!
The calculation is done based on a percentage of median income. If someone like Kim Dotcom comes here to live he has very little impact on median income although he will likely impact mean income far more. The relative poverty rate is essentially an indication of the difference in income of the bottom 50 percent or so of the population. You should read up on it sometime. A more effective technique would be to take money from the middle and give it to the bottom.
Are you suggesting that it is more important that our statistics appear more equitable regardless of the rather odd arrangement of taking from middle earners and giving to the poorer? I understand there is merit in calculating relative poverty and ensuring a closer gap between the wealthiest and poorest in any given country; however if it means confusing the policy makers into following the bizarre notion you are putting forward then perhaps we had better stick to absolute poverty issues for the meantime.
It is to noones advantage that there are people getting poorer and poorer in this country. I do not understand capitalists so intent with increasing their wealth that they would cut their own customers off by leaving them without capital to buy their products. A very strange approach to pursue…very strange indeed. We can both agree that relative poverty is not a good indication to use as it is confusing and we should focus on absolute levels instead.
I suggest your view that absolute levels of poverty are increasing is wrong though. Where did you find such a rich vein of weasel, Gossamer? A better solution would be to simply dismiss and ignore your suggestion that we fix the statistics rather than address the issue. I suggest you go out and find some evidence to support your intimations and desist from making unsubstantiated suggestions; persevering with this approach leads you to increasingly appear to be in a fantasy la-la land all of your own.
Take a look at this article on FactCheck and note: Hence, the way the issues are framed in the media reflects who is winning the battle. Extensive studies have shown that mass media have always influenced the political process, but never more so than with the innovation of the television.
This method of information gathering has led to the superficial politics and ignorance of voters in America today. Our opinions are actively manipulated and this takes time to research, formulate and apply. I asked for real life examples of how National influenced the debate unduly compared with other political parties.
You said it yourself at 1. National does more of it. Do you have the actual evidence that National framed the debate better than Labour at the last election? All you have is me stating an opinion that National might do more marketing and psychology research.
I have seen no firm evidence on this. Your opinion is all I need to negate your opposite opinion, I call it fighting fool with fool. Once again you are quite wrong. I have never stated an opinion that National engages in the specific behaviour detailed by blue leopard more than Labour.
If you have evidence they did so in the last election then put up or shut up. Whats all this then? You asking for evidence? Despite being written 6 years ago the approaches being applied to NZ now are recognizable as being entirely identical, of particular note in this regard are the policies we are being subjected to. Older posts Share this: Print Twitter Facebook Reddit Related. Govt defends tax haven Hollywood Rules. Herald promotes cheating and tax evasion Written By: A parade of prejudice stated as fact.
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